Interview with Jonathan Coulton

Quit your day job
By Mike Johnson

Jonathan Coulton had one of those ideas that you have at the bar after eight Bud Lights with yourr friends and never actually execute – except he actually did it. Coulton quit his job as a software designer to dedicate his life to music full time and set out to create one new song every week for a year. It’s lucky for us that he did because song #5 was the most ingenious cover I’ve ever heard, a folk rendition of Sir Mix A Lot’s “Baby Got Back” that rapidly accrued more than a million YouTube hits and confirmed to him that leaving his day job was the right decision. Coulton releases all of his songs in the Creative Commons format, which allows users to do whatever they please with his quirky tunes as long as they shout him out at the end, and it’s made for some hilarious videos.

TCP caught up with Coulton recently to chat about his recent success, what Creative Commons has meant to his career, and the possibility of a mega collaboration with Sir Mix A Lot.
Can you tell me a little bit about Creative Commons and what it’s meant to your career?
Sure. Creative Commons is an idea that I first came across when I was at a sort of futurist conference in Maine called pop tech. Barry Lessick, the founder, spoke about it and explained what it was and I was blown away. It was one of the most exciting intellectual moments of my adult life. Basically, the idea is that it’s a license that sits on top of copyright and gives back some rights that copyright takes away. So for instance, I have a license that allows people to freely trade all my music and to reuse it in other things that they might create, whether it’s videos, covers or anything provided that they’re not commercial, not making money off of it, and that they credit me.

I think it’s been really great for me for two reasons. First, it’s helped to get the music out there. Indicating that you’re ok with people sharing music means that it’s going to travel to a lot more people than it would otherwise. And second, there have been so many fans who have created things using songs. I’m mostly thinking about the videos on YouTube, there must be hundreds of them now and a couple of them have been viewed more than a million times. That kind of marketing… it would be very expensive if I were to try to reach one million people some other way..

Can’t pay for that type of publicity…
Yea, I mean this cost me zero dollars. It’s amazing.

Since you started using Creative Commons have you noticed more people at your shows? You say you’ve had over a million hits on some of these YouTube clips, do u know that the payoff is that some of these people are coming to see you live?
This is the complicated thing about all this stuff. I think it’s very difficult to figure out the economics of it. Certainly over the last couple of years my audience has grown from nearly zero to something kind of large. I’m able to pull in a few hundred people in various cities around the country and how much of that is due to Creative Commons I have no idea. I think that some of it has got to. The way I look at it, there’s such large and complicated machinery involved and it’s very hard to isolate what each part does. All I know is that I put it out there in a certain way and it sort of turns around and comes back to me in the form of fans, ticket sales, cd sales and tee-shirt sales.

You remain unsigned. Can you tell me the pluses and the minuses of that?
Well, certainly a big plus is that I keep a much larger percentage of that I make than what I would if I was signed. If you want to talk about a traditional label deal I think bands usually get pennies on the dollar for every cd sold. For me however, a song that I sell for a dollar I will generally keep 75-80 percent of that on average. I can actually live much better with a smaller audience than I would if I was with a label.

On the negative side, recently it’s been more and more difficult for me to wear all the hates that I need to wear. I think that it’s invaluable once you reach a certain point to have people who can give you advice, negotiate contracts, and do a million dif things that I have certainly needed help with over the years. These are things that a label could do. That being said I have a few different people sort of working for me a la carte in that way. I have a booking agent, a PR firm, and a manager, and they all take on the roles that I think a label would take on.

I thought “Thing a week” was a very cool idea. You attempted to produce a new song every week for a year. Can you tell me what that process was like? Did you ever put a song out just to put one out for the sake of the project? Maybe a song you weren’t necessarily proud of?
[Laughs] Every week, man, every week. No, it was pretty hard. I think the first few songs were easy. I was sort of a frustrated creative person and I hadn’t really ever in my life been 100 percent devoted to making music in terms of the time I spent in a day. So I churned through the first four great ideas I had in my head and then I was fresh out. From that point on it became harder and harder every week to come up with something from scratch.

There were certainly times that I would put out a song that I wasn’t proud of. There were definitely a few of those, and the interesting thing is during the writing process I would find myself almost always getting myself to the point in the song where I hated it and thought it was never going to work. I was never going to finish it and even if I did it was never going to be any good. Most of the time I was not right about that. Most of the time they came out pretty decent and some of the times the ones that I hated turned out to be terrific songs. It was very instructive for me in that way to learn that I always hate what I write until it’s done. [Laughs]

I guess one thing that it did for you was leave you with this huge catalogue of songs. What’s the longest concert that you’ve ever put on?
I generally try to play for an hour, hour and 15 minutes, but I certainly have a two hour show in me. It’s a big help to have a deep catalogue like that because obviously the more songs you have the more your going to be able to sell. I don’t think I could be making a living off of a 12-song cd alone, but I have 80 or 90 songs out there so it certainly helps.

You used to write software and then you quit your job to throw yourself into music. Tell me what those first few months were like after that huge change.
Well, it is a very scary thing to do. It felt selfish and I was sort of embarrassed about it in a lot of ways. When I first started I was not making any money at all and it felt a little weird. I had a daughter who was less than a year old at that time so it felt weird to be handing her off to a nanny so that I could sit in my room and play the guitar.

I got lucky that early on the “Baby Got Back” song was a viral hit. That was song #5. So I got that kind of positive feedback and that meant a lot to me and it really helped to keep me going and think that there might be something in that. But at the same time, still, six months into it I would circle back to really negative feelings. This isn’t working, I’ve made a terrible mistake, I’m gonna have to go back and get a job. But every now and then I would write a song that I really loved or a song that people responded to and I would feel better about it again and by the middle of the year I was starting to break even. That was a really good feeling.

That’s great. You say breaking even after six months I’m sure a lot of musicians would take that in a second.
Totally. And I still today and surprised and grateful that it’s worked the way that it has. I’m actually making a living this way which is literally a dream come true.

Any contact from Sir Mix A Lot?
[Laughs] Not from him directly. I did hear from his music publisher. He wrote me and said it was great and that they were gonna play it for mix but I never heard back. Maybe he didn’t like it.

I remember reading that Weird Al ran into some trouble with Coolio so I was hoping you didn’t walk into the same problem.
Yea, I hope so too. I do pay royalties on the digital downloads and the cds. The compulsory licensing scheme. It’s a completely legal operation as far as that’s concerned so as afar as I know I haven’t done anything that he could actually sue me for… although as we know that doesn’t always stop people suing each other.

You should just trade him a cover for a cover. Let Sir Mix A Lot cover Code Monkey…
[Laughs] Oh man, that would be the greatest thing in the world.

You are viewed as a man of the geeks. What kind of crowd do you draw at your shows?
A very geeky crowd. I would say that my crowds are predominately male. There’s a large percentage of people who work in software or who administer servers… that sort of thing. A lot of gamers and a lot of science fiction fans. Generally lovers of robots and card games, that sort of thing. I think it’s a great thing. I’ve always felt like a geek and identified in that way so I feel like I’m with my people when I’m out there.

Come for the Star Wars convention and stay for the Coulton concert?
Exactly. Bring your light saber!

Who would you love to collaborate with?
Oh man, Thom York. (Laughs) I don’t know, it’s so hard to imagine anybody famous wanting to collaborate with me. I suppose it could happen but I don’t know. That’s an interesting question. There are so many people who I admire and emulate so it’s very hard to choose. I’m a huge fan of They Might Be Giants, I think they’re terrific. You mentioned Sir Mix A Lot, that would be hilarious and very cool to have him join me on stage. But yea, I think I have to go with Thom York just because it would be so strange. [Laughs] What the hell would we do?

Have you ever been asked to do a corporate gig for a software company?
Yea, that’s come up a couple of times. Honestly, I’m at the point now where im doing a lot more traveling than I thought I was gonna do, I’m in my mid 30′s, I’m married, and I have a kid so it’s not the same as it was when you’re 21 years old. I have to be really efficient about my time away otherwise I drive myself and everyone else crazy. So unfortunately I’ve had to cut out a lot of stuff that I would otherwise be excited about doing and corporate gigs are one of them. I know that a lot of people make some money doing that, but for me, to know that instead of doing that I can go to some venue where people are actually there to see me is much more fulfilling. I tend to avoid the corporate stuff and I’m lucky enough to be able to make that decision at this point.

I’m sure you left the corporate environment for a reason…
It’s funny, you work at a job and then you leave the job and start working from home and you think to yourself, “How did I ever go to an office everyday? When did I shop at the grocery store, go to the bank, get haircuts? Now I can’t imagine ever not working from home, whatever im doing.

Especially with a small kid, that’s the dream…
It’s really nice. My work day ends at 5 and I have a couple hours to spend with my daughter which I think is great.

Who do you think has the best facial hair in music?
[Laughs)] Facial hair in music? ZZ top obviously. And I have to say that anybody who can wear a mustache and look good… I’m such an admirer. I feel like that is a real man who can pull off a mustache.

It does take a confident man like a Tom Selleck, Burt Reynolds type of guy to pull it off.
Oh man, Tom Selleck. I would marry Tom Selleck just because of the mustache.

Lastly, what is the best way for people to come see a show?
I have a mailing list and if somebody wants me to come to their town, the site is called eventful.com. It’s a demand system where you can go, sign up with your email, and indicate your desire to have me come and play a show in your city. It’s gotten to the point now where I sort of know the cities that I’ll do well in but there are still a lot of places I haven’t played. For instance, Atlanta. I never played there until a few weeks ago and the only reason I went down there and booked this show is because of the eventful website. I saw that there were 100 or 120 people who signed up and that’s usually a good indication that at least that many people are going to turn out for the show. I travel pretty light, it’s just me and a guitar, so it makes financial sense for me to fly down there, do a show, and fly back the next day.

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